Valerie, 77, London
Occupation Teaches sociology and psychology at a girls’ school
Voting record Always Labour: she’s a paid-up member of the party
Amuse bouche She grew up in Perth, Australia. Her brother was allergic to cow’s milk, so her family kept goats in the back yard. It was Valerie’s job to milk them
Pav, 28, London
Occupation Artist and music producer
Voting record Labour party member, but voted Green in the last election due to Labour’s failure to call for an end to arms trading with Israel
Amuse bouche Pav is transgender (pronouns they/she) – and has an identical twin who is not
For starters
Valerie I wasn’t nervous. I’ve mixed with people from all over the world, so I love meeting new people. Pav’s very diplomatic and never took offence to anything I said.
Pav I was very nervous. Appearing in the press as a trans person is scary. Also, I didn’t know to what extent she would want to talk about the subject. But it was really interesting, funny, and we agreed a lot.
Valerie I stuffed myself. I had arancini, mushroom noodles, then a fantastic chocolate cake with ice-cream. I drank Languedoc rosé, and an apricot and bourbon cocktail.
Pav I was impressed with the food. I had an aubergine bharta with a paratha, then fried chilli pepper tofu. For dessert I had a white chocolate tiramisu. I had a glass of white wine and a lychee rose martini.
The big beef
Valerie I don’t like the use of “they” for non-binary people. “They” has a meaning: more than one person, so I don’t think it’s appropriate.
Pav Historically, they/them were used as singular pronouns. It was only when English became standardised in Victorian times that it went out of fashion. Also, when we don’t know who a person is, we’ll say, “Someone broke in, they took the TV.” Some people use neopronouns, like “ze”. She said she was in favour of that – I was like, “Oh my God, you’re more liberal than me!”
Valerie I noticed “he”, “she” and “they” all have the letters h and e, so I suggested “het”!
Pav She mentioned that since older people didn’t grow up knowing about trans people they shouldn’t be judged when they misgender someone. But I think it’s condescending to treat older generations as so incapable they can’t understand pronouns.
Sharing plate
Valerie I think the EU should be divided into two: east and west. It’s too unwieldy, there are too many different societies and economic backgrounds. Pav told me about Moldova campaigning to become part of the EU, and that there will be more money for the country as a result. I hadn’t thought of it from this point of view.
Pav I voted to remain and she voted to leave. I’m the child of eastern European immigrants – my mum is from Moldova. I disagree that there are too many people and too much cultural difference.
For afters
Valerie I don’t think older people should have to pay more tax – wealthy people should. Although the young might have a slow start, once they get on to the property ladder and the career ladder they’re going to benefit from better health and working longer, so I don’t think they’re being victimised in the way they think.
Pav Increasing capital gains or inheritance tax, I could imagine papers like the Telegraph spinning that as a “generational tax” because it would disproportionately affect people of an older generation – but it wouldn’t have the effect of punishing you if you’re older but not well-off.
Takeaways
Valerie I had a very enjoyable evening with Pav, who presented me with different points of view which I found really interesting. I learned a lot about transgender issues and Moldova.
Pav At the very end, Valerie asked if the reason I’m transgender is because I’ve read negative things about men. I said no, and told her how much of my decision to transition had felt physical, feeling unhappy in myself. It was nice that she was curious and I was happy to answer her questions, but there were points where I thought she had ideas about trans people that she wasn’t being totally upfront about. It left me feeling a bit conflicted, but I still really enjoyed talking to her.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Valerie and Pav ate at Mildreds in Soho, London.
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