Shash, 28, Cambridge
Occupation Doctor, looking to become an orthopaedic surgeon
Voting record Ukip, Tory, and in the last election he spoiled his ballot by spelling out R-E-F-O-R-M like a crossword answer in the candidate boxes
Amuse bouche He’s a beekeeper – “Buckfast bees, pure British stock”
Mary, 44, London
Occupation Public sector worker
Voting record Doesn’t like to say, as in her work she supports people with very different political views to hers, “but regardless, I live in a safe Labour seat”
Amuse bouche Her parents put her in Scottish Highland dance classes, and she has been known to bust it out at parties
For starters
Mary I was nervous. I don’t always remember the right word. But I love to hear other people’s perspectives.
Shash I wasn’t nervous. I enjoy agreeable disagreeableness.
Mary I’m vegan so only had one option for each course: arancini, and then tofu skewers. It was delicious.
Shash I had deep-fried calamari, fish and chips, and three ciders. We didn’t have dessert – we talked for so long we didn’t even finish our mains.
The big beef
Mary Shash thinks some things should be funded by tax – defence, police, judiciary – but the rest should be left to the market. Having arrived late because of a delayed train I said, “What about trains?” He said, “Yeah, that can’t really be left to the market.” Then we talked about the water companies, and he said water shouldn’t be left to the market either.
Shash Clearly, we need a state for civilisation to exist – we need to prevent mob rule. But tax should be limited. It’s inherently violent, mafia-esque coercion: “Give me your money or I’ll throw you in a box.”
Mary For him, it seemed the state’s main purpose is defence against violence. But what about consensus, care and community? What if that’s the reason we pay taxes, and those are the things that should be prioritised?
Shash The reasons food banks exist – people not being able to meet their basic calorific needs – are grotesque, but the charitable neighbourliness is great. That’s eroded by overreliance on the state.
after newsletter promotion
Sharing plate
Shash I think there’s room for privatisation in healthcare. Not in emergency care, because you can’t shop around. But people can end up waiting three years for a hip replacement. The state could provide vouchers for the amount the NHS would have spent, then patients could take their custom to the private sector and top up if needed. It would reduce waiting times, both for the patients who took the vouchers and for those that didn’t.
Mary I agree the NHS as it currently works is inefficient. But I believe that the profit motive is in conflict with care. In my experience of the private social care system, the profit motive drives up prices and drives down quality of care. The amount of regulation you’d need to make a market fair would bring in so much inefficiency that you may as well just run a state system better.
For afters
Shash Taking refugees is an inefficient way to alleviate suffering. If that money was spent in low-resource countries it would alleviate more suffering. Buying mosquito nets or childhood vaccines would affect millions of people rather than a few self-selecting thousands.
Mary That’s a theoretical utilitarian argument – do this as more people are killed by mosquitoes than war – that only works on paper. We live in a world that’s going to push migration to northern Europe: the question is how do we deal with it ethically?
Takeaways
Mary Shash said, “The left always identifies with the victim, and the right with people who are strong.” I can see the appeal of wanting to identify with winners and strength. He said people on the right have a stronger disgust response than people on the left. I was left wondering if that’s what makes them defensive in the face of difference and change, because the world feels more threatening to them.
Shash I was surprised we reached as much agreement as we did. I think I gave her pause for thought. I’d say Mary had pretty beige, Guardian beliefs – we should help asylum seekers, stopping the boats is a bit cruel, the profit motive in healthcare is sketchy – things I’ve heard a million times before, so there was no real pause for thought for me.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Shash and Mary ate at The Petersfield, Cambridge.
Want to meet someone from across the divide? Find out how to take part